Stowe: A few observations
1. I think Stowe is racist.
-She repeatedly generalizes about Africans and Anglo-Saxons. "...a gentle attitude so common to their race", or in the last chapter George states the he has "hot and angry Anglo Saxon blood".
-While the slaves become Christians as soon as they are shown love and kindness (George, Topsy, Cassy, ect.), Tom Loker doesn't change one whit under pretty much the same circumstances.
2. I think Stowe is a feminist.
-Notice that the only bad woman is Mari St. Clare, a slave holder, while the other women are all good and the husbands are the ones who are a bit off (Mr. Bird and Mr. Shelby). Even Simon Legree's mother was a devout Christian.
3. I think Stowe is a Communist.
-Notice St. Clare's speeches to Miss Ophelia in Chapter 18 and to his brother in Chapter 23. There are definite Marxist overtones about the lower classes rising and defeating the oppressors. This just goes to show that Marx wasn't the only one with these ideas.
4. Because of these biases I believe we should look elsewhere for a good account of slavery.
posted by Lemony Snicket @ 10:20 AM
26 Comments:
At 2:50 PM,
Gabriella Reed said…
did sam post that or daniel? i think it was sam...
i would like to point out though that some of the slaves in St. Clare's household are rather lazy, foolish and don't really have much virtue. so i wouldn't go so far as to say that she's racist because she does show a little of all sides. now maybe not ALL the time, but she does sometimes. like Marie St. Clare for example. Stowe does show that not all the women in the book are perfect by sticking her in there.
and i wouldn't say that she is feminist either. sure she dramatizes by making most of the women good and most of the men bad, but take Tom for example(the slave tom). he was a good husband to his wife, a good father to his children, and we see care in his character when he sees St. Clare drinking. and St. Clare may have some messed up ideas, but he loves his daughter and does what he CAN for his wife (which really isn't much). so i wouldn't say that sam..... or daniel.
but i must say.... it sort of does look like she's racist and feminist.
i REALLY don't think she's communist-lol-
H.H.
At 9:42 AM,
Lemony Snicket said…
-Hey, it's Sam and I did write the post.
-Sure Stowe showes some less then perfect slaves, but she always blames it on the Anglo Saxon masters. St. Clare admits that it's his fault the slaves are so lazy. Stowe claims that it's Lagree's fault that Sambo and Quimbo are the way they are. George is bitter because he was mistreated by Mr. Harris. Any problems the slaves have are caused by their masters.
-As I noted in my post, Marie is a steriotypical slave holder and therefor is, of corse, bad. If she didn't own slaves I bet she would have been just as perfect as all the other women in the book. Stowe doesn't shrink from revealing the mens faults in the system, the only really perfect man is Tom; but the only non-perfect women are Ophelia and Marie, and Ophelia becomes good.
-Have you read the chapters I mentioned in my post? Have you read anything by Karl Marx or Engles?
The Afferative holds to their position and I strongly urge for an Affermative ballot.
I am now open for cross examination.
Sam
At 1:40 PM,
Gabriella Reed said…
good because i would've demanded to cross examine.
LESS THAN PERFECT?!?!?! i should say so!!! even more than less than perfect!! do you seriously think that a man who would kill a man to maintain his freedom isn't less than perfect? and a slave (i can't remember her name...but its the cook- A WOMAN)that doesn't obey the athorities set over her. which leads me to....
the feminist view. i MUST say that Marie's unhappiness wasn't "caused" (as she would put it) by the slaves, but rather St. Clare. so even if she wasn't a slave holder (and by the way i hope you remember that she doesn't have any say in the control of the slaves) she would still be the same cruddy way she is WITH slaves.
and, as you mentioned in your last post, St. Clare DOES show a certain amount of humility by admitting he was wrong in the way he "raised" the slaves.
don't mess with me. you know i'm smarter than you....jk jk!
At 8:20 AM,
Lemony Snicket said…
-The Affermative would like to request that the Negative (Heather)clarify their points as their last speech was muddled and we could not understand it. We would also request that the Negative (Heather) address our points specifically so we know waht they are talking about.
-Point 1: Admittedly George was bitter to the point of violence, however, the reason for his bitterness was his mistreatment at the hands of his master, as soon as he was shown kindness he became a perfect Christian except for some of the Anglo-Saxon blood left in him (see letter from George in chapter XLII). The same is the case with "old Prue" (chapters XVIII & XIX)
-Point 2:The reason Marie is so "cruddy" is that she was raised with slaves and taught to be condesending and selfish. If she had been raised with a Quaker family I garentee you she would have been perfect. The last sentence is, of corse, bunk; the purpose of it is to desplay what the Affermative believes is the view of Stowe.
-Point 3: This point was not adressed by the Negative (Heather) in the last speech and the Affermative would like to know if this point is understood.
-Thank you and I strongly urge for an Affermative ballot, I am now open for croos examination.
At 5:00 PM,
Andrew said…
I vote for a double loss..
haha, lol, jk..i'll have to think some more before i start chuckin comments in your argument...i mean...discussion lol..
At 9:07 AM,
Lemony Snicket said…
Well hurry up, Heather's no fun to argue with. jk
Sam
At 10:29 AM,
Lemony Snicket said…
Heather,
You said that you didn't believe that Stowe was quite feminist because Uncle Tom's character was so good. But notice Uncle Tom was the only good man besides the Quakers and a few minor characters; and he was a Black slave. That gives evidence to Stowe being racist. And therefore, since she makes a difference between whites and blacks, I believe the evidences of her feminism should be restricted to whites.
Dan
At 8:43 PM,
Gabriella Reed said…
okay. Sam:
what i was trying to put across was that she does show a little of each side. i'll start with the racist veiw.
there were many "less than perfect" (as you stated in an earlier post) slaves in this book. and i would like you to remember that Prue didn't change. and (as far as i've read)neither has some of the other slaves in St. Clare's mansion. and remember our argument about (i can't remember their names) the two slaves at the beginning that foiled tom's (the slave-trader) plan to capture eliza and harry.
is this clear? well i really can'tsay anymore cause i gotta get up at 5:15 tomorrow and its midnight. so i'll ttyl!
At 9:54 AM,
Lemony Snicket said…
-Old Prue didn't change because she was drunk and had been so mistreated by the evil white man that it would of taken a while for her to return to her former perfect state (like Cassy).
-I don't see your point about SAM & ANDY (how could you forget them) and their escupade with HALY (not Tom).
-You have yet to bring any opinion about Stowe being a Commie.
At 11:12 AM,
Gabriella Reed said…
thats right!!! i forgot all those names!! thanks..... but back to business.
i just have one question for you all..... have you ever read a book and thought that the characters were the way they were because of the story line? maybe stowe didn't have any better ideas. and she might not have even meant to make it look like she wanted all the women and slaves were perfect..... i don't know. it just seems that things don't always turn out the way you plan them to.....
DON'T SAY ANYTHING MORE ABOUT CASSY!!!!! i haven't gotten that far yet!!!! don't spoil it all! i was looking forward to seeing other examples to prove my points later on, and your oppinion may change my veiw of thinking as i read it and cause me to agree with you..... and that wouldn't be too fun now would it?
what i meant with SAM AND ANDY (thanks) was that they weren't "redeemed" of their wrongful doings after they did them and so, therefore, i have another example that proves that not all slaves were perfect.
NOW, i will move to the feminist veiw.
Prue was drunk by her own will. she wanted to take away the pain of abuses by her masters, yes. but becoming drunk wasn't the best choice was it? if you think that becoming dunk takes away pain then i'm most certain you are going too far in your defense of your theory. and yes it was wrong of her masters to treat her that way, but she reacted in an extremely negative way.
who was it that had masters that sold their children and was then sold, had a baby, and the child died of hungar? was that Prue? i can't remember, but my point is that it was a FEMALE mistress who refused to allow the woman to go and get milk for her sick baby. so there ARE more examples than you think. and even though these women are minor in this story, i think that put those characters in to show all the sides to this (as i said earlier).
well we're here cleaning so i g2g! ttyl,
Heather
P.S. whats a Commie?
At 5:52 PM,
Lemony Snicket said…
"Commie" is short for Communist.
Dan
At 10:41 AM,
Gabriella Reed said…
figures..... okay. first, tell me WHY you think she's a commie and then maybe i'll have something for you.
At 2:58 PM,
Lemony Snicket said…
-Every author has a worldview, which is shown through their work. The fact that all of Stowes non-slave holding, non-oppressed women characters are perfect indicates a femenist worldview.
-Sam and Andy are portrayed as clever rather then bad, excusing their faults. They were also working against the evil Anglo-Saxon slave trader.
-Pure is also excused because she has been persecuted by her master. Notice that Stowe tries to make you pity her rather then hate her as is the case with Marie and Legree.
-Again, a slave holding woman, a southern bred woman, willfuly deprived the baby.
-Read St. Clare's speeches to Ophelia and to his brother that I mentioned in my post. Look for references to the slaves rising and things of that nature. Stowe is very Commie.
ttfn
Sam
At 5:19 PM,
Gabriella Reed said…
non-slave holding? non-suppressing? are you serious? what do you think about marie? and what does living in the south have to do with a person's character? sure they're around lots of temptation, but a good Christian would learn to over come that temptation. and i doubt that EVERY book writer shows their oppinions in all their books. and i told you that YES Prue's owner was wrong in their treatment of her, but she reacted the wrong way! it was her OWN decition to start drinking. NOT her owner's. and i have gotten to the chapter where Tom is sold. do you remember Susan and Emmiline? Susan was sold to a REALLY NICE GUY! i almost cried when i read that he was willing to empty his purse to try to keep Susan and Emmiline together! AH!!!...i'm pathetic i know, but HE was really nice. a MAN. NOT A WOMAN. sheesh. this is pitiful. i need to take a big break from this whole thing.... so expect me to post tomorrow. ttyl!
Heather
At 7:41 AM,
Lemony Snicket said…
-My point about the non-slave holding, southerm bred women was that they are the only women that Stowe portrays as bad. I don't think living in the south has anything to do with your character, but Stowe did.
-You made a good point about a good Christian overcomming temptation. That is exactly Stowes point; if you own slaves, you're not a Christian. Wait till you get to the end to argue with that one.
-Your next point was completely wrong. ALL authors will ALWAYS show their worldview in ANYTHING they write. They can't help but do it. We can't see into Stowe's mind,
but we do know that she was trying to make a point with this book. Our
job is to take what stowe has written and try to interpret what she thought.
-Stowe excuses Prue's behavior BECAUSE she was mistreated. Look at how Stowe writes about Prue, the look at how she writes about Tow Loker the slave catcher. Stowe makes you pity Prue, but sympathy for Tom approches nil. Slaves are to be pitied for their bad behavior
while whites are to be condemed (see Simon Legree and Sambo & Quimbo).
-A nice man, but is he really doing
anytheing? No, he's supporting slavery and just waiting for some tragedy to happen to him so all his slaves get sold to someone like Simon Legree. *the above is my
interpretation of what Stowe thought* At the end of the book, Stowe condemes the men, but it's the WOMEN she calles to act. Clear femenist bies.
Sam
PS. Still nothing on the Commies?
PPS. Your book must be soked with tears. That's exactly why I hate the book so much is that it's such a tear jerker with out facts.
At 12:01 PM,
Gabriella Reed said…
-and tell me, why is that so extravagant? they were surrounded by slaves and were influenced by them, yes. but what about Eva? she was raised in the south and was really nice. and take a look at Ophelia (before she was nice). when she came to the south THEN she became nice. not while she was up north. so that has nothing to do with it.
-i have finished the book today, and i still have to disagree. there are some slaveholders that are good to their slaves, and because of certain urges to set their slaves free (death, debt. etc.), they set their slaves free. look at george shelby. he was a kind master, but just in case of sudden death or debt, he set them free. do you think thats bad?i believe he was a very good master and may have been a Christian also.
-i highly doubt that they do. there are some authors that just use their imaginatioin to make money. and because of that, they will show all sorts of sides to avoid offending anyone (which is rediculous). and some authors write for the sake of writing. if you were going to go to a local newspaper to ask for a job writing articles for them, sometimes publishers don't want what YOU think in their paper. they want what THEY think. so really, their veiw is really their publisher's veiw and the writer gets banged up for it. is that clear? or do i have to restate it.
-again, i have to disagree. Prue wasn't excused AT ALL of what she did. do you see anyone blaming her owners for what happened? i don't think so! and i didn't pity sambo and quimbo at all! and they were the ones who asked for forgiveness, not legree. so that is a terrible example because the results are different.
-well he tried to help and went as far as he could! he couldn't help them anymore or he would go into debt! and then the whole thing would be helplessly hopeless. and i'm not hearing any evidence that supports the theory of his wanting all his slaves to be sold to someone like legree (what humane person would want that?)
-um i do recall george being called to act, like he really did! and he succeded in his action of setting his slaves free. and i don't recall any of the women doing anything except Emily helping her bro.
well you all know my mind. i have said my peace. etc. so.... is it just me and sam agruing about this thing or what?
Heather
P.S. i still don't see how that makes her a commie...
P.P.S.well i really did cry when george came back without Tom. with Chloe being all happy and everything! that was so sad!!!!.... what do you mean FACTS? you remember reading about Tom's death don't you?
At 12:02 PM,
Gabriella Reed said…
....wow....thats the longest post i've ever written!
At 2:43 PM,
Lemony Snicket said…
Let's number these arguments for better reference.
Stowe says...
1-All the slave-holding women are spoiled rotten nasties.
*This is a gross misrepresentation since there were good Christians who had slaves.
Eva was a child and a girl. Stowe seems to think that girls are perfect until corrupted, and Ophelia was changed by Eva. The MEN support slavery; any woman who supports slavery does it because she was raised that way.
2-All willful slaveholders are non-Christian.
*Read the final chapter; think about what Stowe is saying. Then notice that Mr. Shelby doesn't care about religion, neither did St. Clare or his wife and definitely not Legree. The REAL Christians, i.e. the Quakers, Ophelia (after seeing Eva), and Mrs. Shelby (after Tom is taken away), all support freeing the slaves. If characters support slavery they are either portrayed as non Christians (see above) or stupid (Mr. Wilson from the factory).
3-Authors worldviews always come out in their writing. (I say this, not Stowe)
*Someone’s belief is defined by their actions, not by what they say they believe. If I'm a Christian and I write like an atheist because of pressure, I don't really believe it. My cousin is a good example here. He claims to believe in God, but he's not a Christian; he would be the first to deny God for a job, that's because he's a pluralist, he doesn't really believe it, he just says it to avoid conflict. This argument is true and Andrew, Meg, and yea even my own brother will back me up on this.
4-Slaves are victims of circumstance while white men are not.
*Reread the part about Prue and watch how Stowe tries to manipulate you feelings. Stowe wants you to blame her masters for the way she is, not her. It's ALWAYS the masters’ fault, it's that way with George, Cassy, Sambo, Quimbo, Topsy, all of St. Clare’s slaves, and St. Clare himself says that the slaves are the way they are because of HIM, the master.
5-Most men are less then perfect.
*My point was the man was supporting slavery, not fighting it like good boy George. Again, even if the wife or mother is good the men are still flawed (Mr. Bird, Mr. Shelby, and Simon Legree to name a few).
6-Stowe principally calls the women to act. (Me)
*I was referring to the final chapter.
7-Stowe is a Communist. (Me)
*Define communist for me and then we can start arguing this.
Sam
At 6:45 PM,
Gabriella Reed said…
okay....lets take this one theory at a time...
1. okay...this is clearing up a few things. i agree with your first sentence, and your second, and the third. but not the fourth. not all men support slavery (like i was trying to say earlier)what about george shelby? and what about Mrs. Shelby? she was raised with it and she didn't support it.
2. this one's tougher to answer. i must admitt that that is the way it appears, but i still can't think that she could think some thing like that.
i g2g. ttyl
Heather
At 2:58 PM,
Gabriella Reed said…
okay, to finish off my last post...
3. okay. since you state it like that, i agree. lets start a new post!
4. i'm getting you now! so thats what stowe is saying, not you right? if its stowe, then i don't see any point in agruing about it. (but i still don't think that she is trying to blame Prue's owners. because any person with sense would know that it was her own fault for drinking)
5. i must say that Mr. Bird was a really nice guy! sure he said he would heartlessly turn away any runaway that came to his door, but he still came through with his wife's state of mind. so i still don't agree with that.
6. ......okay......i'm still not getting that.
7. to satisfy you, i will quote from our dictionary and tell you that she isn't a communist! actually it says that a communist is "someone advocating and/or practicing communism", so i'll quote from communism. "a political theory advocating a society in which all property is publicly owned and each person is paid and works according to his or her needs and abilities. the communistic form of government established in the USSR and else where. any movement or political docterine advocating communism." now tell me, was stowe involved with politics at all(besides that fact that her book made a major impact on the country)? did she try to take over people property or money? i don't think so.
well i need to go watch he colt's game!!! GO COLTS!!!!! they'd better win....
Heather
At 6:29 AM,
Lemony Snicket said…
1-My point is that in the book women tend not to support slavery (Mrs. Shelby, Mrs. Bird, and Mrs. Legree), while the men tend to support slavery (Legree, Shelby, ect. ect.).
-You agree with me on the rest of this, which pretty directly points to femenism.
2-The Only reason this argument is still here is that you don't think that somone who you don't know could think this. I will consider this point won.
3-Point won.
4-(since the last two were won, we will call this "2" from now on) Are you agreeing that Stowe blames the masters for the slaves faults?
5-(now 3)Mr. Bird voted that other people would be arrested for doing what he did with Eliza; I thik this qualifies him as "less then perfect".
6-(now 4) Read the final Chapter, look at who Stowe talks to the most, men or women?
7-(now 5) The basic theory of comunism is the class struggle i.e. there are always two classes, the oppresser and the oppressed. St. Clare talks about the slaves rising up just like the people did in England; this is a fundemently Marxist view.
ttfn
Sam
At 7:39 AM,
Gabriella Reed said…
alrighty!
point 1:(i hope you remember that Mrs. Legree was a slave) it may be true that that is the way she pictures it, but i still think that some of the nice guys who supported slavery came through as really great guys(even though some of the supported it through their VOTES for example. even though Mr. Bird voted for it and even made his oppinion known, he still proved his true oppinion through his actions.)
point 2:i'm not necessarily agreeing with you, just admitting that that is the way it appears. lets just say she is blaming the owners, how would that effect her purpose? sure it makes slavery look bad, but then there's still those good slave owners that treat their slaves well. so how would making a few guys bad make her oppinions any different? i think she made those characters bad to serve her purpose in writing the story. how can you write a good story that makes everyone bad or everyone good? thats not the way you do it, you do a little of each and thats what i think she is trying to do.
point 3:i addressed this in point 1.
point 4:i still think she makes equal claims.
point 5:then that would be another big word. i can't think of it now, but its where you favor a certain party (not racism or feminism)
....have you ever heard of masculinism? is there such a thing? why is there such a stress on the favoring and rights of women, but not men?....hmmmmm...
there we go. i vote we make a new post thats nonrelated to this post cause this is gettin really boring. where's daniel, oee, and andrew? hello guys? are you even checking the blog?
Heather
At 9:39 AM,
Lemony Snicket said…
Okay, I think I will now post my full views on Sam's original post.
1. I agree with Sam that Stowe is racist. She portrays the entire African race as being fundamentally good, and the only reason some of them are bad is because they were corrupted by whites. For instance, George Harris, Prue and Cassy were driven to despair by harsh treatment, and Topsy, Sambo and Quimbo were indulged in depravity by their owners. Notwithstanding, Topsy's case is a bit of a strange one.
2. I agree that Stowe is feminist. She says that Black women are always good unless they are corrupted, but the racist issue covers that. As for white women, she basically says that they are always good unless they are INDOCTRINATED with the wrong thing. Marie St. Clare was indoctrinated with Southern slave-holding bias, and Miss Ophelia was indoctrinated with the stuffy Northern society. Most all the other women are good, because they are either Christians, or anti-slavery, or both.
3. As for Stowe being a Communist, she does say some Commie-sounding propaganda, but I'm not quite sure yet whether she is a Communist herself or not. The theory of the oppressed lower class (proletarians) rising up and defeating the upper class oppressors (bourgeoisie) was one of Marx's big points. Stowe's model slave strongly represents Marx's model proletariat, and Stowe's model slaveholder strongly represents Marx's model bourgeois. So there is some evidence that Stowe was a Commie.
4. I would say that the actual story line Stowe gives is not that bad, but the sentimentality and her conclusions are terribly skewed. So her portrayal of Tom's story and George and Eliza's story and the other individual stories are plausible, but the overall situation is not half as bad as she makes it out to be.
Dan
At 1:51 PM,
Gabriella Reed said…
whoah..... what do all those freaked out words mean? i can't comment on this comment cause i didn't understand half of what you said daniel!-lol- but you all know my conscience...
point 1: no
point 2: no
point 3: kinda
point 4: i sorta agree with what daniel said. i didn't think that the ending was messed up. but of course, thats my oppinion.
well i have to go read the rest of chapter 24 and then 25 for church history. ttfn,
Heather
At 2:39 PM,
Lemony Snicket said…
Don't Change the subject Daniel!
Heather,
1-In spite of your argument the men are portrayed as realisticly flawed, while the women are all but perfect. (Mrs. Legree wasn't a slave).
2-My point is that the slaves are excused from any bad actions because of their masters; basicly I'm saying she's racist.
3-Mr. Bird was realisticly flawed while his wife was perfect.
4-No she does not. She blames the men for their actions, but calls the women to right the wrongs.
5-I don't understand your point. Stowe doesn't favor men at all.
ttfn
Sam
At 10:37 AM,
Gabriella Reed said…
okay. we seriously need a new post. sam? daniel? meg? oee? andrew(if your still taking the class)? i would but i still can't cause of the thing. i don't really know what thing it is, i just know its a thing. so don't question my accountability.-lol-
Heather
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